World War II

Discussion in 'Historical Events Coffee House' started by NateAwesome, Feb 13, 2011.

  1. lukakiwi Well-Known Member

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    The real reason, basicaly, that germany lost is because Hilter interfered too much insttead of leting the generals fight the war.
  2. D3adtrap www.twitter.com/d3adtrap | Mr. Choc: Coco Fruits

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    And even if he did would germany have won despite that? If generals would have had their way, war would be lost before 1942 and remember at this time Hitler was not controlling anything. In 1942 he didnt give them chance to retreat. In 1943 he told them what to do. In 1944 he took total controll of the army.

    Hitler would not win even if he would give the generals to do their jobs, but he made things so much worse when he got to power.


    !!!!EDIT!!!!
    Actualy I take it back. If generals would have their way, germany would have "won" by negotiating for peace with USSR before (and just MAYBE after) battle on Moscow. They took soviets by suprise, exterminated their armies and had ALOT of their land.

    But if they would continue their war of extermination, to take all of russia (or european part of it) they wouldnt ever succeed. Ever.
  3. pedro3131 Running the Show While the Big Guy's Gone

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    Had the Germans been able to fall back to better defensive positions instead of holding untenable ones, they would have suffered much lower losses during the winter and spring, enabling them to save precious material and persons for the next round of summer offensives. While this may not have sealed victory, it certainly would have left them in a much better strategic position....
  4. D3adtrap www.twitter.com/d3adtrap | Mr. Choc: Coco Fruits

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    And thats all I'm saying. Hitler made thing much worse, but germans couldnt win even without Hitler. At least that was far way to go.
  5. lukakiwi Well-Known Member

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    Yet if the Generals had their way they would have never started the war with the USSR, thus probably winning in Africa, they would have also put their almost fool proof invasion plan for britain into action, taking it in just over two weeks(estimated) because they would have done it before americans got there, tinstead Hitler opened up the russian front as he wasnt patien enough to finish one war first, he also didnt want to invade Britain because he view the English as Aryans too and wanted to reduce casulties of British Aryans and have them join the Reich almost willingly haveing destroyed their morale. The generals knew this wouldnt work and would have invaded Britain, eliminating the las real oponennt (excluding resistance) in western eururope and giving no place form which america could stage an invasion once Pearl Harbour was attacked and they joined the war. in fact, they may have not even gone to war with Germany as there wouldnt have been any allies in europe left and te americans couldnt fight the jerrys alone.
  6. lukakiwi Well-Known Member

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    Yet if the Generals had their way they would have never started the war with the USSR, thus probably winning in Africa, they would have also put their almost fool proof invasion plan for britain into action, taking it in just over two weeks(estimated) because they would have done it before americans got there, tinstead Hitler opened up the russian front as he wasnt patien enough to finish one war first, he also didnt want to invade Britain because he view the English as Aryans too and wanted to reduce casulties of British Aryans and have them join the Reich almost willingly haveing destroyed their morale. The generals knew this wouldnt work and would have invaded Britain, eliminating the las real oponennt (excluding resistance) in western eururope and giving no place form which america could stage an invasion once Pearl Harbour was attacked and they joined the war. in fact, they may have not even gone to war with Germany as there wouldnt have been any allies in europe left and te americans couldnt fight the jerrys alone.
  7. lukakiwi Well-Known Member

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    sorry for the double post it was an aciident
  8. pedro3131 Running the Show While the Big Guy's Gone

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    I can't remember which thread I posted it in, but the goal of Hitler was always Russia, not England. They were ethnically similar with the British, and conquering Britain didn't really fit in with his need for lebensraum, as they wouldn't be taking land away from other Aryans. So inevitably, no matter if they had or hadn't conquered England, they still were going to invade Russia, and doing it when he did offered him the best chance of success.
  9. Crusher949 Active Member

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    As Hitler once said, before declaring war on Russia, "Once we conquer The soviets/Russians (dont remember) there will be more space for Germans to move in". so he obviously had plans. now, whether that was his ultimate goal not even Germans that were alive then could tell us, but i feel his goal was to secure dominance for Germany and the Aryans. Also, i agree he was so militarily incapable, i probably could have done better, or at least lost way less lives. he couldn't care less for the men he loss, probably (and i said probably because no one knows what he thought) he also didnt realize how powerful the combined forces of france england and russia were.
  10. lukakiwi Well-Known Member

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    Yet my case still stands, if he had listened to his general and closed the western ad African fronts first, then germany would have more easily taken on russia if he again allowed his generals to fight the war.
  11. pedro3131 Running the Show While the Big Guy's Gone

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    Not necessarily, part of the reason Germany was so successful in 41 against the Russians was that the Russians weren't yet ready. Hitler knew that he didn't stand a chance if he let the Soviet's fully mobilize and prepare their defenses. Kind of defeats the purpose of Blitzkreig if you announce your intentions and then give the enemy a few years to prepare for you.
  12. lukakiwi Well-Known Member

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    I dont think you quite understood me, why would someone declear war on somebody and not do anything?
    What the generals constantly advised hitler was to finish the Western front and then go to war with the soviets, i.e. keep them thinking tat their peace treaty is not a ruse.
  13. pedro3131 Running the Show While the Big Guy's Gone

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    Well now I don't understand you... My point is if they hadn't attacked Russia when they did, they would never really have a chance. The "western front" didn't really exist after the fall of France and it's not like German troop concentrations to the west were hurting the efforts in the east....

    And who in our hypothetical situation would be declaring war and then not doing anything? And despite the "ruse" of alliance, both sides were gearing up for an eventual conflict. Stalin was banking on Hitler and the West knocking each other to pieces and then he was going to sweep in and finish off Germany..
  14. lukakiwi Well-Known Member

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    hehe, this is quite a misunderstanding, i thought that in your previous comment you implied Hitler would decleare war but not comit enough to the eastern front. Also, when i said western front, i meant the African front too. You see, if they took Britain out of the picture in Great Britain and Africa, (and the forces fightimg al;ongside Britain like french free forces and Polish free forces) they would have more easily comited to the east later on/afterwords, also, having not gone to war with SU the process of finishing of Afrca and invading Britain wouldnt have been to Stalins estimation of a sort of Pyrrhic victory. Therefor even if the SU decleared war on them(germany), they would have been able to totaly commit without leaving Africa/Italy and France as ways for the Allies to come in from their backs because of a lack of supplies taken to Russia, as those areas would nop longer be theaters of war; also the allies wouldnt really exist as in this hypotheyical situation america would have been unlikley to join in europe if Uk was knocked out of picture.
  15. slydessertfox Total War Branch Head

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    u r 100% correct both of u
  16. NateAwesome Active Member

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    YES!

    Hitler's biggest mistake was to take on a war on (tech.) 3 fronts! First, the Western front, the Southern or African front, and then the Eastern front!

    His second mistake was to declare war on America. I have soooo... many books on WWII and they all say that if Germany didin't declare war, America would probably not have been in war with the Germans.

    His third was to cancel the British landings, and declare war on Russia. Plus, he stopped his advance on Russia for 6 months! So, they fought in the cold Russian winter! What a complete idiot Hitler was!

    Another mistake was to made allies with Italy. Their military was so bad. In Egypt (I think), they outnumbered the British by like 100,000, but still lost! I mean WTF! Anyways, WWII would have been totally different, if someone else was in power (A smart leader), in Germany!

    Either way, Winston Churchill did a wonderful job keeping the British people happy.
  17. D3adtrap www.twitter.com/d3adtrap | Mr. Choc: Coco Fruits

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    Why is it stupid to make alliance with some one who is at war with your enemy? Yes Italians didnt even beat Greeks, but they inflicted damage on the British and thats all that matters. More dead brits is good for Germany despite any Italian losses.

    On everything else, I agree
  18. moglorn Member

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    Sorry i have to disagree with that, i really do appreciate the fact that US helped libarate europe, we will always be gratefull for that.
    But do you really think D-day would have been succesfull if the bulk of german forces weren't fighting on the eastern front?
    Don't take this the wrong way but americans always seems to forget that on the eastern front more then 20 million soldiers/civilians
    died that is far more then on every other ww2 front in the world together.

    I see it this way without either one Russia or US joining the war Germans would have won the war because the simple fact is germans lost the war because they were fighting on 2 fronts west/eastern

    p.s Sorry if my spelling is wrong english not my first language
  19. slydessertfox Total War Branch Head

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    I understand ur point and I agree with it completely. But also, u cant tell me tht even with the Germans fighting on the Eastern Front the British would have been able to do any serious damage in Europe without the Americans getting involved. The Gremans still would have held the advantage there. Also, going baack to Nate Awesome's comment, I do believe at one point or another the United States would have still joined the war against Germany. However, the later America joined, the better for Germany, so thus Hitler should have just waited for America to declare war on him maybe a year or 2 later. If that is, Britain had not surrendered by that point.
  20. NateAwesome Active Member

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    America helped greatly. If the U.S didnt join the war, Germany wouldv'e most certainly defeated the Soviet Union. The USSR wouldv'e got invaded in 3 fronts of the Jappanesse invaded them. The USSR did not expect to be invaded so quickly and with the top 2 most succesful "fast" invading conquering countries at you is alot of pressure, and alot of men. There was more than 10 countries who where a main part of the Axis. Germany, Italy, Japan, Hungary, Romania,Bulgaria, Finland (Didn't sign it, but helped against the USSR), Yugoslavia, Vichy France, Slovakia, Spain (They gave military power all though Spain was netrual.) Then there were a bunch of smaller states that the Axis took over.

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