The Battle that Stopped Rome

Although the battle of the teutoburg forest was arguably the most decisive battle in Rome's history, probably their most humiliating defeat, and determined how Rome's policy on Germania would go for the rest of her existence, it is often overlooked. The Romans had a significant and seemingly permanent presence, in germania, most likely all the way up to the Elbe. After this defeat, the Romans abandoned all attempts to pasify the other side of the Rhine, which with hindsight, we can now see would have dire consequences on the later Roman Empire.

If Rome had won, or avoided the battle of the teutoburg forest, they would have expanded their borders all the way up the Elbe, and possibly even to Russia, which would eliminate many of the foreign threats it would face a couple hunred years later. I would go as far as to argue that it was this battle, not the sacking of rome, and not the battle of adrianople, that sealed the fate of the Roman Empire. If not for this battle, I think the Romans would now have fallen until at least a few hundred years later, if they fell at all...

Quintili Vare, legiones redde!

The fact that they would suffer a defeat sooner or later, at the hands of northern tribes, was inevitable and that it would deter further colonisation was just as likely. Perhaps they may have gotten a bit farther, and latin influence might have been slightly greater but to say that they would have reached Russia is a ridiculous claim.

Your right in that they would most likely suffer a defeat from tribe or tribes. The questions is would it have been a decisive enough to defeat to halt roman expansion in that direction? The romans have suffered defeats in many other parts of their empire, but none of them have had the same effect as teutoburg. In the east for example the romans suffered many defeats, but none of them ever stopped rome from attempting to expand in that direction.

I have to agree with the op, had they not been defeated at teutoburg forest, they would have certanly continued to expand into germany and probably past it.

If they had no reason to, why did they try it in the first place? Germania was already considered a province when they sent varus(an experienced adminstrtor) to cosolidate and organize the new province. So they obviosuly wanted germany.

Why did they expand into dacia? or britian? The same reasons they went to germany. Land , resources, and prestige for rome or agustus.

Were not talkng about the size of the battle, we are talkng about how decisive the battle was. In the punic wars the romans suffered many defeats, yet they never gave up trying to conquer carthage. This is why this battle is so decisive, more so then othe battles in the east or in the punic wars. Regardless of how important you think the battle was, there is no denying the fact that after this battle they made no further attempts to actually annex the region.

Had this battle not happened or had the romans won, history would have completly changed. The germanic peoples would have been steadily romanized as the gauls, britians and spanish were. There are so many effects this would have on our history and the fate of the roman empire, it almost impossible to imagine.

Losing three legions is not a "minor setback". He was not saying it was the worst defeat they ever suffered, he was saying it was the most decisive defeat they ever suffered. No other defeats rome suffered caused them to stop attempts to expand in that direction(numerious defeats in the east, in the punic wars). And although they still launched military campaigns into germany, none of them were fot the purpose of gaining a new province. There is no denying the fact that after the teutoburg forest, rome stopped expanding into germany.

If i were rome, why didn't they try to conquer the Fertile Crescent (they already had slaves to farm the land)

http://www.livius.org/te-tg/teutoburg/teutoburg01.htm

Assessment

It is possible to overstate the importance of the battle in the Teutoburg Forest. As we have already seen above, this certainly happened in the nineteenth century, when, especially in Germany, Arminius, and Varus became symbols of an eternal opposition between the noble Germanic savages and their decadent, Latin speaking archenemies - the French.
This eternal opposition is simply nonsense. After the horrors of the First World War, the great Belgian historian Henri Pirenne (1862-1935) was among the first to oppose the idea, but Europe needed a Robert Schuman and a Konrad Adenauer to understand it. From the reign of Louis XIV to the Second World War, control of the Rhine has been a source of conflict between France and Germany, but the Rhineland has always remained a zone where two European cultures met and exchanged experiences.
Yet, the battle was important. The Roman empire met its limits. Tiberius accepted that there were areas without towns that were not predigested for Roman rule. During the next centuries, the Germanic tribes learned from Rome, and Rome learned from them. But always, Germania retained some of its independence.

This had serious consequences. One example may suffice to illustrate this: if the Romans had kept the country between the Rhine and Elbe, the North Sea tribes that were later known as Saxons would have spoken Latin. The English language would -for better or worse- never have existed, and German would have been marginal. The great linguistic division of today's western world would simply not exist without the battle in the Teutoburg Forest. But the fights were not the cause of this rift; they were a precondition.

I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. As important as Teutoburg Forrest was, I don't think it caused the Empire to fall a lot earlier then it would have.

I said in my post that they did still launch military campaigns into germany from time to time, but none of them were campaigns trying to annex the region.

@StephenColbert21 Had the romans suceeded in making germany a province, the germans tribes that caused the romans so much grief in the later years of the empire would be romaized citezens much like the gauls.

The difference between the defeats Rome suffered at Hannibal, and the teutoburg forest, is that cannae, and trebia, and lake trasimene, never stopped the Romans from attacking Carthage, and in the long run, the Romans still won the Punic wars, and Carthage was no longer a threat after Hannibal. Yes, hannibal's defeats were larger, but they were nowhere near as decisive as the teutoburg forest. Rome completely abandoned Germania after this, which like Spartacus said,was almost all a Roman province at the time. Losing 3 legions (3 of your best legions at that) in a couple days is more than a setback.

Teutoburg was just a minor setback, and they returned so the words very minor setback come to play.

That battle is by no means overlooked, if anything its importance is way overstated, especially by German nationalists. The Romans never conquered Germania because there was nothing there that they wanted. It wasn't worth the effort. It also was by no means their worst defeat, or their most decisive battle. Battles like Trebia/lake Trasimene/Cannae were way more important for Rome's history. The Punic Wars determined whether or not there would be a Rome on the map. The Cimbrian Wars also fall into this category.

It did end up establishing the limes on the rhine, I'll give you that. But it didn't matter that much if the border was on the Rhine or the Elbe, they had to defend their border regardless. If they had taken land up to the Elbe, it would mean they had to defend more land with less resources, as the land there was pretty much worthless to the Romans.

I disagree, the Roman Empire fell because of constant internal civil wars. If they did make Germania a province, it would only have made the empire weaker. They would have to defend even more than they already had to do. There would still be barbarians on their border, maybe not Germans but surely Dacians, Goths and so on. Germania would certainly be a net loss for the empire, just like Brittania was. Probably even more so.

You are aware that germany has natural resources right(iron ore, copper, tons of timber, and not to menton the amber trade route)? True, the punic wars were very decisive for rome, but again non of the defeats stopped rome in their tracks. The romans were in the process of anexing germany when varus lost his three legions, so there is no question on whether or not they wanted it, they obviously did.

If the Germans were annexed and romanized, the Romans would have a huge new recruitment pool of romanized Germans. Obviously they would have to develop the region, but they had to do that for every new territory that rome took, so it would be nothing new.

The Western Roman Empire fell for a number of reasons. Lack of manpower, bad leadership and internal division to name a few. But one of the biggest factors in the downfall was the decision to incorporate germanic barbarians as foederati troops. So you basically had a bunch mercenaries with no ties to Rome fighting for her. This was obviously a bad decision and led to several civil wars and betrayals, until Odoacer(a German general) deposed Romulus Agustulus. Another problem with your comment is the Romans already had to face Dacians and Goths on top the hordes of Germans. If they taking had taken Germania, not only would they not have to deal with all those German barbarians, all the Germans would be romanized citizens. That equals, on top of the resources of the region, a new large body of Roman citizens to recruit from.

The campaign launched by Germanicus across the rhine had no real strategic goal, other then Germanicus needed the loyalty of the troops, and the recovery of the 3 eagles lost at the battle of Teutoburg. Our point was and still is they never made a move to annex the whole region. You keep pointing out how they still launched campaigns across the Rhine, but that does not disprove our point.

Haniball was a great general but he did not have the capability to take Rome. This is why he spent years in italy winning every field battle, and yet he never besieged rome. Had the Italian allies sided with him after Lake Trasimene, he might have been able to conduct a seige, but they did not, eventhough he had won the battle. So these battles, which Rome generally lost, are obviously not that decisive if Rome wass able to survive losing all of them.

How can you honestly call this battle insignifigant, it is fact that had they not lost this battle, Germania would have became a new Roman province. So many things change in history had that happened. Battles like Lake Transimene or Cannae, with Rome losing thousands upon thousands of soldiers where obviously not as decisive as Teutoburg since Rome still defeated carthage, despite these defeats.

You don't get it. Augustus really, really wanted to conquer Germania. Germania was all but conquered when the the three legions were slaughtered. The Romans wanted the Elbe to be their frontier. The Romans feared the Germans, and the Cimbri had threatened Rome only 100 years before. The Germans did give Caesar a problem as well. The Romans wanted to conquer the Germans for the same reason they wanted to conquer the Gauls. It gave them prestige, more territory, more resources, a more stable border, and a strong enemy would be vanquished.

Germania had a lot of resources, most notably, timber.

Let me paint a picture for you:

There's no frankish invasions, no saxon invasions, possibly no vandal invasions, and they would be in a much better position to defend against Attilla. If the conquer Germania, that means Marcus Aurelius does not have to spend all his time fighting German invasions. This means he could fulfill his goal of moving the border of Dacia up further (I forget to where), which would prevent a Dacian invasion, and perhaps even a Gothic invasion.

Rome stopped expaning into Germany because of this battle. If you didn't know, it was Germans who lived in the area that the Romans were at the time pacifying, and people from Dacia, that invaded and weakened and destroyed the empire. If you conquer Germany, Marcus Aurelius wouldn't have to deal with German invasions, and could accomplish his goal of expanding into Dacia, which would leave the empire in a near perfect position for centuries to come.