Ancient History

This is no argument. Try something better.

Well it's certainly not a 'generally accepted fact' that Christianity was responsible for the fall of the Roman Empire. That theory holds about as much water as the 'moral decay' theories do.

My point is that "It's making Christianity look bad, so it's biased" is a stupid argument. While it's not the only factor, it's ignorant to say it had zero effect on the state of the Empire.

The effect was negligible on the stability of the Empire. Without Christianity, Rome still had all of the problems that caused it to collapse, and no intermediary scapegoat to blame them on. If anything Christianity stalled the decline.

While it was a small factor, I don't think history would've went the same if the Empire didn't convert to Christianity. Then again, a huge empire converting to a relatively new religion will have an effect no matter how you look at it. People were used to polytheistic religions, especially in the western part of Europe. A newer religion which was something they had never seen before wouldn't integrate smoothly. With or without Christianity, the Roman Empire was bound to fall. Also, the Christian Empire was hardly tolerant of Pagan religions:

Both Christians and Pagans were put to death, manpower was drained much more quickly, and tolerance would've been the better option in both cases. The Empire still would've fell regardless, but they didn't think of the long term, thus the longevity of the Empire was shortened.

Dude. They are not biased. Look it up. Religion itself caused the downfall. Once Rome converted to Christianity (which mind you only a small minority of Romans at the time were Christian), the Roman Empire literally was tearing itself apart. One of the reasons for lack of manpower was many Christians believed it was against their religion to kill at the time, and thus did everything to avoid being conscripted into the army. The early Christians had a tendency to be subersive of authority in general, thinking all worldly authority was "of the devil". Then many of them refused to defend the state when it was besieged by barbarians, saying "We defend it with out prayers!"Pagans were persecuted everywhere, and just about all their temples were closed. This caused the Pagan base to also become dis unified with the empire. Hell Julian believed the Empire was evil and it was a good thing if it fell. Mind you Julian was an emperor...

A lot of what the emperor did was influenced by the pope. If the emperor tried to enact something that lead to more Pagan tolerance (which they tried to many many times) the pope would tell him that was a sin and he would go to hell and blah blah blah if he did that. And thus each and every time, subsequent emperors failed to enact more Pagan tolerance. Not to mention. Christians themselves were fighting each other.

http://ancienthistory.about.com/cs/romefallarticles/a/fallofrome.htm

http://www.roman-colosseum.info/roman-empire/causes-for-the-fall-of-the-roman-empire.htm

I guess these sources are biased as well right?

I'm going to err on the side that Christianity did not cause the downfall. It may have contributed, but it did not cause it. I have to agree that in my studies I have never heard any serious mention that Christianity was a driving force in the collapse of the Roman Empire.

I may be misinterpreting what you mean by "moral decay", however, I do remember mention of widespread low moral in the Roman Empire.

Had Christianity not been around, there would not have been a centuries long scapegoat with which to blame administrative problems on. It's unlikely that it would have lasted nearly as long as it did, given some of the inexcusable actions of the emperors.

I think that the issue in this case was the temperament of the leadership and clergy. Most of Constantine's reign was marked by tolerance of paganism right alongside Christianity. I think the exclusion of paganism during later periods is a reflection of the atmosphere in the leadership, not an independent event that harmed the empire. Orthodoxy was a desirable trait to have, but it was pursued at the expense of tolerance and therefore stability. Were it not Christianity, any number of the various cults could have risen to this status, as one of the major goals of post-Diocletian emperors was always to consolidate ideas at the expense of stability.

True, they did have quite a bit of Emperors that just plain messed up. They were pretty much consumed by their own power, and in their desperate attempts to cling on to that power, they only made the Empire delcine faster. Heck, it's why the Republic had such a more complex political structure, just to prevent thing like these from happening.

Constantine's son started with the first anti-Pagan laws, according to the quote I provided. It seems that in the history of the Empire, emperors with good intentions had a lot less positive effects than idiot emperors like Nero had negative effects.
Overall, zealous religious people refuse to listen to reason and pretty much anything that contradicts what they believe, no matter what the evidence or logic they are facing. Those people are best ignored, as they often have nothing intelligent to say.

If you weren't an atheist than you may be more credible. Anyone in their right mind knows that Christianity did NOT cause the fall of the Roman Empire. Main reasons for collapse:Weak Emperors, Diseases, Low Population, Invaders, and the constant civil wars.

That's a fucking absurd counterargument.

Exactly. You, as a Christian, saying that Christianity had nothing to do with the fall of the Empire and saying that anyone that claims that it was a factor is absurd is more biased than an article. While it wasn't the cause 100%, you just plain cannot deny it had no factor at all. Then again, denying facts seems to be the fundamentalists' favourite pasttime.

Was it the main cause to the fall of the empire? No. Did it help make their problems worse? Yes. Like I said, I divided the people in the empire even more than they were already able to fight back. Christians of the time were very pacifistic. This increased the number of people avoiding conscription and hampered their ability to organize local levies to fight the barbarian invaders. As I said, the pope and other religious leaders had a lot of power behind the scenes. And disease? Where did you come up with the idea that disease had anything to do with the fall of the empire?

I guess all those other sources were a bunch of atheists also right? And didnt I say when I first posted this, this has absolutely nothing to do with my religious beliefs? I could say to you "You would be more credible if you weren't a Christian" but that would not make any sense now would it?

Disease came from my history book. Would you rather have pacifists or people who just want to declare war all of the time. I would say pacifists would help an empire surrive because they don't want to fight all of the time. Christianity didn't divide as early as you think. It divided after the fall of the Western Roman Empire. UnitRico, this is the first I have EVER heard of Christianity being a factor in Rome's fall. What could it have caused? Pacifism? That would mean they wouldn't fight the Goths, Vandals, etc. Give me another reason it could have caused Rome to fall other than Pacifism?

How the fuck would pacificism HELP the Roman Empire? They HAD to fight the invading barbarians. this was a major reason why they COULDN'T raise an army to DEFEND themselves. Christianity also played a major role in why Germanic people like the Goths could not get assimilated into the empire and accepted easily. Many of the Goths were Arian Christians. The Church virtually labeled them all as heretics. It is kinda hard to be assimilated and accepted in a nation when you are basically labeled as an enemy because you follow a different form of the states religion.

Please tell me how in the world your textbook explained DISEASE of all things playing ANY part in the decline of the empire.

So what I learned from this thread is that either A. Christanity played a role in the decline of the roman empire or B. it saved it and it was everything else but the Christanity

Or maybe just maybe, It was a mix of internal and external Conflicts of the Roman empire from the tribes to disease that lead to its demise, a long with trying to weaken the power of the emperor and German Invasion.

*Facepalm* Why would they be at war????? Christianity played no role in the fall of Rome. Disease=http://my.hrw.com/tabnav/controller.jsp?isbn=9780547522043 username=awilliams7378 password=b7j8m

Ancient History covers a large area of history, and because of this I only like certain parts, the Assyrian Empire, the Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire, and the rise of the Christian faith.

While it might not have been a state of war, tribes that "illegaly" settled in Roman territory were a problem, they were in the perfect position to raid nearby villages, as Romes smaller and weakened army had a lot of problems dealing with them. Not to mention a lot of tribesmen were recruited into the Roman army, but weren't very reliable, as they cold walk off if they wanted. What were the Romans going to do? Also, there were very strict anti-Pagan laws that sentenced them to death. Very pacifistic. While Jesus' teachings were pacifistic and based on peace, love and all that other hippie stuff, in practice it was (and still is) nothing like that. And while at times Christianity was forced to fight, in a lot of cases they were the aggressor themselves.

The fall of the Roman Empire was, once again, a combination of factors. Economic crises, disease, declining of the population numbers were all huge factors. Christianity, in all that, still played a factor.