Ancient History

All that Viking Socrates is saying is that the Aztecs were able to invent all this stuff on their own whereas the Spanish and most Europeans just borrowed and borrowed and borrowed stuff from other countries such as China. This would then mean that the Aztecs were technically smarter than the Europeans at the time.

Now what i'm saying and your failing to realize is that for a culture the Spanish thought was ill advanced and had no achievements (Being Pagan and all that) they manged to make there own mathematical system, While the Spanish who had way more time to come up with a system did not, infact if it wasn't for the Romans the Spanish would still be nothing while the Aztecs would be making glorious math, also even with the Romans it was the Arabic occupation of Spain that really brought math into the country, When the Spanish arrived on the Americas the civilization all ready knew the math.

If they had made there own system, I would be arguing the Spanish where a educated and advanced culture.

The Aztecs did not need the Spanish to acquire Mathamatics
The Spanish did Need the Arabic and Greeks.

The Egyptian's do have that advantage being in the desert their Pyramids will last in better condetion for far longer, while the Aztec's Pyramids will be gone before long but that's just the disadvantage of a Jungle civilization.

My argument was that the Aztecs where able to be self beneficent and efficient, while the Spanish were not. The Aztec's had a very good idea how to use there resources though Iberia has way more metal then Aztec Mexico while Aztec Mexico has far more gold.

You're point being the Spanish did have miltary advantage
My Point being the Aztec's had the Culture and Learning Advantage (Sigh if only the Spanish saved some of the Aztecs work, instead of killing it all for being evil pagan)

Well the Aztec would never have executed the Spanish; they would have lavished them with Gold and riches beyond any mans dreams (Because the Spanish were gods)

Chinese Invent stuff, the Muslims perfect stuff, and the Europeans ignore it until the last second and then use it on a massive scale. (But the Chinese Made alot)

The Musket Bullet didn't have as much stopping power as the modern day Bullets and we're very inaccurate and slow (Combined with the environment and weather) there ability to kill anything is far lower.

The Conquistadors did receive great training, while the Aztecs did as well (Go Jaguar unit) Still i wonder why the Aztec's didn't use any sort of hit and run Guerrilla tactics against the Spanish, guess that wasn't there style.

No i do not blame the Spanish for adapting and reusing ideas and methods (I would too), I do however blame the Spanish for viewing the Aztecs as backward when they themselves had just learned it from other people not to long ago. Very Hypocritical, and yes i do admire the Aztecs making there own Discoveries.

My point was even while sick and dying they still fought off an army of Spanish and Natives that they thought were gods, you got to at least admire that.

*Sigh* I think my liking of the Aztecs over the Spanish, is like likeing the Greeks over the Romans (SIGH poor phalanx)

But it when it comes to Cultural and Technological achievements (Via one self) the Aztecs outshine the Spanish in that light, which I just want to point out the Aztecs aren't this barbaric hell hounds we think they are.

Well the disease we're spread on purpose, the Europeans would have there sick and dying lay on blankets and then they would present the blankets to villages and cities of the Americas and watch as they all died of Smallpox, Yellow fever, and Bubonic plague.

Which they got the idea from the Mongols (Oh biological warfare)

The heart, which like to the Egyptians. Was very sacred to the Gods and the Aztecs them self's. It was all about culture here. Next to be sacrificed was the greatest Honor one Aztec could achieve because you were chosen by the gods to help feed the people and continue the harvest.

The Europeans we're beyond cruel. Forced religous conversion, rape and murder of towns, kidnapping of children, slavery, kicking someone out of there native homeland, false propaganda against them and any other act which would have the U.N today and anyone of the Geneva convention baring down on them like the wrath of God.

A typo, So we agreed the Spanish were assholes correct?

You can do that in Futbal just be the Goalie. But the Point i was making with the Original was the Aztecs like the Chinese made there own paper.

The Roman system was far vast then Aztec system, however the Aztecs were disadvantaged by there resources and landscape at the time. however the Roman Aqueduct system ran down and didn't reach the cities while the Aztec system did. Yeah the Egyptians and other man did use there animal advantage (If they didn't thats just a waste of one)

The Math system we covered, The medical system (Need i go over how the Spanish thought one of the cures for Plague was fire or wiping thy self) The medical system of the Aztecs far outsuprases the Spanish.

Oh the unattended irony.

Agreed.

I Belive that we both make great points here.

While you admire the Military advantage the Spanish had, I admire the self-reliant and independent system the Aztecs had which gave way to some great inventions and I go with the Aztecs had a far more advanced System of Culture and other civil services.

It's all a matter of perspective really in the end.

So how about them Mongolians? Total bad-ass you reckon?

Okay, I'll just say it one more time...

Yes, the Aztecs did invent all those things themselves, and the Spanish took them from other cultures, I won't deny that. However, how stupid would it have been for the Spanish to have reinvented everything? I also stated before that many of the things that the Aztecs invented had already been invented in Europe centuries earlier. But yes, the age where the Europeans invented everything was still to come, a few centuries later.

Who knows if the Spanish had come up with their own system if the Romans hadn't invented theirs. The Spanish never really got the time to invent anything. The Carthaginians and Greeks colonised some of Iberia, then Rome took it all, then the Goths and Visigoths (I think), and after the long occupation of Al-Andalus, the Iberians finally managed to beat them (it took almost 800 years). Only what, 50 or 100 years after it ended and Iberia was sort of calmed down (even though you had the Reformation and the Inquisition) did they discover the Aztecs. They were busy with other things. Seriously, if all nations would work by your principle, learning another language would be a fucking pain because everyone would have their own script.

The Iberians also knew very well how to work with their own resources. The fact that someone else came up with the ideas doesn't matter. If we'd go back in time and give a car to a Roman, he'd have no fucking clue what it is. It's great that you have advanced technology, but if you don't know what it does or how it work, it's useless to you.

Also, if the Aztecs would've used all kinds of technology that some predecessor tribe used, would you be saying they're completely dependant on them?

And then came the Industrial Revolution (which was when Europeans pretty much ruled the world).

The speed and shape of the bullet hardly matter if you're using it against cotton. Also, guns weren't used as they are today. Standing in a line and shooting while a blob of angry Aztecs come running at you will surely kill quite a few of them.

I think I saw a show on the Mayan warriors once, I think they had some warrior honour code thingy. It's not too hard to imagine the Aztecs having something like that. However, they might also just not have thought of that.

I don't even know if they saw them as really backwards. I haven't read any Spanish accounts of Tenochtitlan, but I don't think they were planning on admiring the city when the saw all that gold.

Never said I didn't, I only said they didn't stand a chance against the Spanish.

The Phalanx was awesome, however, the Greeks didn't like using any support for them. Fuck pride, you have to do what you have to do to win a battle.

Their culture had the peace and quiet to slowly develop over centuries. The Spanish had just kicked out the Muslims out of Iberia, and their leaders (were they already the Habsburgs? I don't know...usually, I don't care about families, but damn the Habsburgs were the most badass family ever) were too busy ruling over Europe to develop anything except a hate towards those who do not believe exactly the same as they do. Although I do think they had the most advanced ships (which I think were first invented by the Venetians).

I know that was done by the British and Americans in North America, but I don't think the Spanish did anything to purposely spread the diseases into Mexico. Also, I highly doubt they thought to themselves "Hey, some dudes used this 600 years ago, let's do it again!".

The Europeans weren't cruel, that was just their culture, so it's okay (not to mention the Italians, Dutch Swiss and many more were only victims to this, only the Spanish were really freaking out about it).

Muslim rapist victims are either forced to be executed or to marry their rapist. But that's okay, it's their culture.

A lot of US citizens find that we should violently wipe out gays, but that's okay, it's just their culture.

Now do you see that your argument makes no sense whatsoever?

Yeah, pretty much.

You were in a discussion with someone and told him to stop pointing out flaws. That's just not how it works.

The Roman systems were more complex, and a lot higher because they had to transport water over massive amounts of space. I can understand that they were easily clogged.

Of course the "cure" to the plague is to burn the bodies and isolate the infected. There was no cure, if they hadn't done what they did, the entirety of Europe would've died. What the plague did to Europe makes the diseases that the Aztecs got look like a simple cold.

Great inventions that at the time were already present in Europe and the Middle East. The Renaissance had just started in Italy, so even if the Aztecs had a higher culture, it would be overtaken quite quickly.
But we should get out of this loop of you saying the Aztecs invented everything themselves, me saying that already was in Europe and you saying Europe is incompetent because they didn't reinvent everything. We're only making our posts way too large for that...

Aztecs are not ANCIENT HISTORY same with the Chinese you are describing. This is not a Medieval Thread

How about we talk about the fall of the Roman Empire. I think it was mainly caused by corruption and the army really controlling the empire. You see, the army had to be big enough to fend off the barbarians always encroaching on their borders. But the army held too much influence. Anybody they did not like, they just staged a coup and put in a leader of their choice. This lead to great instability.

People say that the pressure by the barbarians just increased and increased which is not so true. The numbers of Barbarians attempting to push into Roman held territory never really got any bigger. If the Romans had stopped these invasions many times before, why could they not stop them towards the end. Well, while the Roman army in total outnumbered the barbarian hordes greatly, most of the troops had to fight the various unsurpers such as Constantine III as well as many, many others. Their was so much instability in the empire, that emperors were being overthrown left and right, and unsurpers were popping up everywhere. The small Roman border troops left to defend the barbarian intrusions were too small to put up much of a fight. Thus this is why the Romans allowed the Germanic tribes to settle in their territory. However, when the Germanic leaders got all upety, they rampaged the Roman lands, which eventually lead to the sack of Rome in 410 by the Visigoths.

Not to mention, it seemed like the individual cities were in no urgency to defend themselves when the need arised. It almost seemed like they wanted to die as barbarian soldiers approached their towns. The Roman emperors had a terrible time trying to enforce conscription, with young men avoiding it left right and center. This also decreased the amount of soldiers the Romans could field. The military was not all that disciplined either. If they were ordered to move from a place they liked, they would get very disorderly, and problems would arise. This may attribute to why the citizens of certain towns did not care that barbarians were about to ravage their town.

The final blow may have occurred when Valentinian III murdered the commander in chief of the Roman military, Flavius Aetius. Aetius seemed to be the last shining light in the darkness that was the Roman Empire. He was the last glimmer of hope. He had successfully defeated Rome's greatest threat, Atilla The Hun, and seemed like he could save the Western Roman Empire. When Valentinian killed him someone said "You have just cut off your right arm with your left".

Thank YOU!!!! This was my point when we argued about this earlier and that the "Barbarians" had many slaves in their army made it even harder.

Where in this post did I say anything about the barbarians having slaves? Slaves played no major part in the fall of the empire.

The slaves of the Roman Empire revolted and were the core of many "Barbarian" armies. I was adding it to your comment.

No they werent. The barbarian army was the same size it had been in previous centuries. It never increased or decreased much. The reason Rome had trouble with them towards the last hundred years or so was strictly because of the various unsurpers and instability in the leaders and the military of the Empire.

That didn't help but the main problems were the civil wars and rebellions.

I would assume your talking about the Industrial Revolution, That was when Europe showed it can do amazing things again; well at least the British and the French Did. Then those Zany Germany got a hold of it and we know how that turns out.

I'll give you this one, the Iberians had a history of Conquest by other nations. Though there conquest by Carthage, then Rome, and then finally Arabia was better for them in the long run.

Coming up with ideas does matter, it shows how advanced and how technological your civilization was, the Europeans just had about a thousand year gap of alot less invention then compared to the Chinese, Arabics, and even the Aztecs. (But they made up for it)

Good times, Good times

See my entire point of hit and run moves and Guerrilla warfare, i highly doubt the Aztecs would have charged straight out like a bunch of Romans.

I heard about that too, I never agreed with giving Orthodox methods and Honor to warfare. When the Mongols got some headway in Japan (Not much with Hurricanes destroying the largest invasion force of all time) the Japanese called the Mongols methods of "Unworthy of showmanship and honor" to which the Mongols replied "Yeah but we're winning".

Speaking of Japanese and Mongols that's another great what if question. (Well anything with the Mongols is great)

According to historical record to the King of Spain, the Spanish thought the city was far better then anything in Europe (However it was Pagan so who cares)

A chance yes, but in the wrong run the Aztecs had alot stacked against them i'll give you that.

The Phalanx was one of the greatest military weapons (Poor persians) however it just got outdated and the Greeks we're not willing to adapt to Roman weaponry. Even still with Phalanx's the Greeks did really well against the Romans.

Peace and Quiet, Not really with tribe after tribe and other groups of people wanting you dead at all times. The Aztecs had it hard.

Yes the Habsburgs, and they we're badass and full of family intercourse, and the First Monarchy of Europe to act independently of the Pope and the Catholic Church.

The Venetians.........what more can we say.

Spreading disease like that was a method they picked up by the Mongols, biological warfare at its best.

*Facepalm*

Ironically Muslims orriginaly gave the most amount of rights to women in the middle ages, and then they absorbed Persian culture and thought "Lol yeah women suck, the Christian Europeans are right Fuck umm"

That's just homophobic rednecks.

If you read the concept of my Arguments you would see they made scence, and it was something the Aztecs (In there mind) had to do. To be honest if you could compare one civilization to the Aztecs it would the Egyptians i would compare to them.

Holy shit we agree on something

I was pointing out that he should stop pointing out a flaw when he has no idea what he is pointing out and just did not understand.

The Roman system was far more vast, however they had alot more resources and Money to get it done. The Aztecs did not and as such had to make do with what they could, you got to admire their efforts on perepareing so that it was continues to the cities.

No they thought some of the ideas of cures was to burn people without the Plague and other animals, and of course because the Jews got the least amount of infection during the plague this must mean they caused it. SO KILL THEM. The Europeans view of the plague is almost funny in hindsight; and the're ideas of cures we're beyond stupidly (But the Catholic church didn't approve of anything to stop the plague)

A simple cold, never in my life have i heard something so Understated. Go infect you're self with Small box or Bubonic plague, or Yellow fever, or any other disease that you could, while getting kicked out of your houses, your children and wife's being sold to slavery, your cities being destroyed, and a group of strangers telling you it was punishment for not following the right religion.

Both Europe and The Americas saw the full scale devastation of the Plague.

I never said they had to reinvent anything, I'm just saying in the entire course of the Aztecs wonderful civilization, the Europeans were dancing around with the heads up there asses with no concept of ideas.

But the Renaissance saved them, Thanks Ottoman Turks and your destruction of the Byzantine empire.

By Civil Wars you mean the various unsurpers correct? That is due to the army virtually controlling the government. The rebellions were also the various unsurpers. None of that had anything to do with slaves.

Can we sop fucking talking about the industrial revolution and the Aztecs in the ANCIENT history thread?

If your empire is falling apart and you can obviously see it. Would you join the people winning or losing? And the civil wars: yes.

They were just unsurpers. Slave rebellions played no significant part.

You realize that there were still gladiators right? I would think there would be many slave rebellions especially captured "Barbarians"

*sigh* Slave rebellions always occurred in the Roman Republic and the empire. 99.9999% of them were small isolated incidents that were put down. The only real major slave rebellion that ever had an impact on anything was the one lead by Spartacus. The fall of the Empire was not imminent until the last 40-50 or so years. Before then and even a little bit in between, they had many many chances to stop their decline and stabilize. Their problem was they went after the unsurpers instead of making peace, thus leaving their borders woefully open to invasion. Slave rebellions always occurred and never had any significant impact.

Well still, Probably there would have been rebellions especially because the emperors were corrupt.

But they had virtually no effect on the decline and fall of the empire.

I'm surprised no one has pointed out that three of the servile wars we're very huge, not to mention that masters fear when slaves revolt because when they do it spreads like a wild fire and can corrupt the entire system. Much like how the Turner 1831 uprising in the united states scared the fuck out of the south and it was only 75 people.