(False) Historical stereotypes

Discussion in 'Historical Events Coffee House' started by D3adtrap, Jul 5, 2012.

  1. thelistener Well-Known Member

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    I love you, you are like " im not going to argue with you, but then again I am, in my own way co's yours too complex XD"

    Here's some facts for you. In 1954, the US Army's Ballistics Research Laboratory conducted a study of tank vs tank engagements fought by the 3rd and 4th Armored Divisions from August to December 1944

    98 engagements were identified, including 33 from the Ardennes fighting.The average range Shermans inflicted kills on the panzer's was 893yds, and the panzer's averaged kills at 946yds.
    The study concluded that the most important factor was spotting and shooting first. Defenders fired first 84% of all engagement, inflicting 4.3 times more casualties on the attackers then suffered. When the attackers fired first, they inflicted 3.6 times as many casualties on the defenders compared to own losses.

    29 engagements involved Panthers and Shermans. The Shermans had an average numerical advantage of 1.2:1. The data showed the Panther had a 10% advantage over the attacking Sherman when the Panther defended, but the Sherman was a whopping 8.4 times more effective then attacking Panthers when the Sherman defended. Overall, the Sherman was 3.6 times as effective as the Panther in all engagements. German A/T guns however, were by far the most effective anti-Sherman weapon they had.

    From the study itself:
    Data on World War II
    Tank Engagements
    Involving the U.S.
    Third and Fourth Armored Divisions

    According to Table II, the most common type of engagement was Shermans defending against Panthers, and the Shermans fired first. In 19 engagements, involving 104 Shermans and 93 Panthers, 5 Shermans were destroyed compared to 57 Panthers.

    The second most common engagement was US Tank destroyers defending against Panthers, with the TDs firing first. In 11 engagements, involving 61 TDs and 19 Panthers, 1 TD was lost compared to all 19 Panthers.

    The most successful enemy weapon was antitank guns defending. In 9 engagements (3rd most common), 19 a/t guns inflicted 25 casualties on 104 total attacking Shermans, losing 3 guns in exchange.

    The 4th most common engagement was Shermans attacking Panthers, and the Shermans fired first. In 5 actions a total of 41 Shermans fought 17 Panthers, losing 2 and taking 12 Panthers in return.

    In 40 actions in which the US forces were attacking, they had 437 weapons and lost 100 (23%). The Germans had 135 and lost 45 (33%). In 37 actions in which the Germans were attacking, the US had 205 weapons, losing 14 (7%), and the Germans lost 83 of 138 (60%).

    MORE FACTS

    Several newly raised Panzer brigades were demolished by the US around Lorraine, for little results.

    PzB 106 was destroyed in an attack on the 90th Infantry. The German commander (Bake, IIRC) thought that the US infantry would panic and run when confronted by the Panthers (because that's what happened in the East.)

    PzB112 and a group from the 21st PzDiv were demolished by a task force (Langlade) from the 2nd French Armored around Dompaire. PzBrigade 112 lost 69 of 90 tanks, 350 dead, and 1,000 wounded. French losses were 5 M4 tanks, 2 M5 tanks, 2 halftracks, 2 Jeeps, and 44 killed, with a single P47 shot down.

    PzB111 and 113 mounted an attack on Sept 18th around Arracourt, but ran into the 4th Armored. By the end of the day 43 panthers had been killed for 3 M18s, 5 M4s, and 6 crew killed. Over the 4 days, the 4th lost
    14 M4s, 7 M5s, and 25 killed. The 111 was down to 7 out of 90 Panzer's, and the 113th was shattered as well.

    Total 3rd Army losses for all of September included 49 light tanks and 151 medium tanks and tank destroyers. The Germans committed 616 tanks and assault guns to the fighting in September; only 127 were operational at the end of the month, with a further 148 awaiting repairs. 101 PzIVs, 118 Panthers, and 221 assault guns were lost.

    Actually no, panzer 4 it did beat 1v 1, panther it could beat 1-1 on occasion but it doesn't matter because the other one is a different weight class altogether and came out after Sherman did (it matters because when US engineers built the Sherman they didn't know about tiger and panther tanks so they obliviously didn't take that into consideration, only when they came across did they upgrade the gun, you see) and other is a medium tank, you see. Its like saying:"hur hur yamato battleship is better than Brooklyn class cruiser co's yamato can destroy light cruiser and the other one can't destroy yamato XD" tiger the same thing, t-34 it could beat and did beat in Korea, again IS-2 is a heavy tank.

    The focus on the Tiger and even the Panther by you in this thread is somewhat misguided. Most of the tanks that were to be found in Heer formations, all the way to the end of the war, were Pz III (built in numbers until 8/43) and IV (built until the end of the war) both of which were well within the Sherman's engagement capacity. Tigers were fairly rare and had horrible availability rates, mechanically the Tiger was a mess. The vehicle also was fairly handicapped in urban of forest environments because of its best advantage overall, the 88mm gun, which was exceptionally long, especially for the era.
    A second, although reasonable question is if it is better to have two battalions of Shermans to support an infantry division or two companies of Pershings (or in the German case, one operational company of Tigers)? That was quite literally the choice that the U.S. had to make. If I'm in the infantry, I know how I answer that question.

    Sure, the German heavy tanks (well, okay the Panther is technically a medium, but it's still much heavier than other medium tanks of the era) offered a serious problem for the Sherman, but they also offered a serious problem for just about every other allied medium tank, even the late model T-34-85s.

    Against other medium tanks it remained potent well into the 1950s (during the Korean war 76mm gunned Shermans more than held their own against T-34-85s).

    You could make a comparison with Churchill tank and a tiger because they are both heavys.

    Actually the shows and some old books I have seen about ww2 always in some way point out how shermans sucked.

    Also wtf you mean its stupid to say it was the best tank? Are you seriously saying tiger would beat Sherman in that contest? If its not stupid to say t-34 was the best, it damn isn't stupid to say Sherman, mkay? And don't you name a German tank as the best. Well.. If you do, at least I know how much you know about tanks. (And if you wondering what I think was the best: its tie between Sherman and its variants and t-34 and its variants)

    I want you to remember that one of those things the Germans did wrong was building tanks that were mainly meant to fight other tanks, when most of the time tanks weren't fighting other tanks at all.

    And remember if you don't strust me, trust logic People weren't going to war in Panthers in 1973, but they were going to war in Shermans. Hell, they were taking out T-55s in 1973. I don't see any Panthers or Tiger IIs doing that. That tells you something.

    BTW,the folks who bad mouth the Sherman might want to talk to the Israelis. They used upgunned versions of the same chassis until the mid-1970s.
    D3adtrap and theteremaster like this.
  2. Melanthropist Well-Known Member

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    No, but people refer to the Vietnam War as a. . . war.
  3. GeneralofCarthage Well-Known Member

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    People also refer to it as the Vietnam Conflict....
  4. Imperial1917 City-States God of War

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    I call it the Vietnam War.
    The APUSH book I studied out of called it the Vietnam War.
    The AP WH book I studied out of called it the Vietnam War.
    Everybody on this thread called it the Vietnam War. Except you.
  5. GeneralofCarthage Well-Known Member

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    No I call it the Vietnam War. :p
  6. General Mosh Citystates Founder!

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    I could deign to put up a fight and argue with you because I can see plenty of things I could rip you apart with, but I'm not going to. I don't feel like getting into some long ass debate which is why I simply gave you an overview of my point. Once again, I'm not gonna bother arguing.
  7. thelistener Well-Known Member

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    sure you could :rolleyes:
    @PineappleJoe said well to somebody, who did the same thing you are doing" I would reply to this post with a witty response. Since I'm not going to I'm just going to post this and say that i could have. Just so everyone knows. It's extremely necessary. I mean if I didn't post this how would anyone know that i could have made a witty response. Not posting anything is simply not an option"
  8. Melanthropist Well-Known Member

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    The girth of your intellectual manhood is intimidating everyone, knock it off!
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  9. thelistener Well-Known Member

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    intellectual manhood, you say? well thank you
  10. GeorgykZhukov Well-Known Member

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    America Always wins.
  11. D3adtrap www.twitter.com/d3adtrap | Mr. Choc: Coco Fruits

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    Except they have never won in Hockey
  12. GeorgykZhukov Well-Known Member

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    Or Indochina.
  13. Melanthropist Well-Known Member

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    I'm going to have to ask you to put that away.
  14. thelistener Well-Known Member

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    fine..fine, hope i didn't traumatize anyone
  15. Kali The World's Best Communist

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    Another common myth perpetuated by the left is that their members aren't Lovecraftian abominations, but are in fact humans like us. I'd say that's about as believable as Ronald's Lurker.
  16. yuri2045 A Marines Biologist

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    That's more than 20 years later after the war, of course they can take down T-55s when they had much more high tech shells than what anyone had during WW2. The Tiger concept is horrible because as you said, the mechanic part of the tiger was a mess, but it wasn't made as a tank destroyer, it was indeed a heavy infantry support tank and it did well on that (apart from it needing constant repairs). Also the Panzer IVs and Vs were not meant to be used as infantry support due to the german fighting doctrines, so they would off course fare horrible in forested and urban areas.
    The only tank you would even put in the table as one of the best in the war was the Panther, but as we all know, it just wasn't as cost-effective as a Sherman or T-34. =)
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  17. Achtung Kommunisten! Well-Known Member

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    I imagine you don't see many Tigers or Panthers around after the war because no-one would want to be seen dead in them, and there simply weren't as many as Allied tanks. They mostly got scrapped or treated like shit by Eastern Bloc nations. Apparently France had a whole unit of Panthers up until 1950 though.
    And most of us have probably heard about Panzer IVs being used by Syria (according to a check on Wikipedia, they got them from from Spain and France).
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  18. TheKoreanPoet Well-Known Member

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    The Korean War ended
    False, the Korean war never ended. An armistance was signed by both sides.
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  19. yuri2045 A Marines Biologist

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    That explains why we still have 2 'Koreas' =)
  20. TheKoreanPoet Well-Known Member

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    I posted this mainly because of the vietnam argument to get onto another topic and also because a lot of students in my school think the Korean war is over.
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